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There was a time when I would simply google the numbers on a pill:
"123 pill"
And the first response google gave I'd cheerfully take. I almost did it again now. But then I stopped. Oh no no no.
Because, knowing if the pill is my thyroid medicine, or antihistamine... uh. That maters.
I could sit there dying of an allergic reaction by the side of the road.
It really sucks that search can't be trusted.
(I don't need alternate search engine recommendations.*)
I am alarmed by this daily. But when I point it out to other people they just sort of dully nod. I feel there has been a significant shift. Whole categories of information that were about 99.5 percent reliable are now only 80 percent or 70 percent. That's a big difference.
Those are just spitball numbers but AI is just WRONG about 1/20 times. Too much.
@futurebird This downturn in search reliability has coincided with GPs finally giving in and accepting that patients will search their own symptoms and now take them at face value.
What could possibly go wrong…
@DJDarren @futurebird looking up your symptoms and showing up with questions is good, actually. But I have a teenager who is convinced that he's dying of appendicitis (he's not) but also would rather die than go to urgent care. That is not going to serve him well.
@futurebird I think my own instinct (I can't say it's been a considered choice) has been to switch from treating a search engine as an authority to using the search engine to *find* the authority. Instead of trying to ID a pill with Google, I'd use Google to find a specialized "Pill ID" service. Instead of typing my Python question into DDG, I'd use DDG to find a Python reference resource.
If enough of us follow suit, the power and dominance of the search engines may be diluted. Which would be a reasonable response to the decay of their quality.
@futurebird In terms of access to accurate, correct information, this stinks. It is more work, it does take longer, and the masses may never adjust.
On the other hand, allowing one or two unaccountable corporations to become the sole trusted arbiters of fact for the world turns out to be a terrible idea anyway.
If we think 2024 Google is bad, we can imagine 2026 Google, operated according to the whims of the likes of TFG and Musk. I'd rather watch it burn.
Distributing expertise, as opposed to centralizing it, is probably safer for the experts, probably better serves the truth and the future.
@WesternInfidels @futurebird Unfortunately, LLMs aren’t good at much, but they are good at putting out text that sounds authoritative. Combine that with a slick site and unless you screen out anything not ending in .edu or .gov (.org is a possibility, but it’s a lot easier to make a front organization than a front government) you’re still looking at having to parse each and every site, which turns a 2-3 minute search into a 15-45 minute mini research project.
@WhiteCatTamer @WesternInfidels @futurebird a front government wouldn't even do it, as .gov is US government only
@WesternInfidels @futurebird On one hand, yeah. For this use case I'd skip search engines altogether and go straight to drugs.com.
But for the Python thing? I already know where the python reference resource is. The problem is both its navigation and its built-in search frequently fail to find me what I'm looking for.
Fortunately Startpage still mostly works, and even DDG kinda sorta does. But for how much longer? *shrug*
@futurebird i keep reminding my kids of this. maybe it'll stick. i can't get my partner to stop recommending it
@futurebird uff. And then the "you can fine tune your search engine" crowd is still out there, still acting like me carefully refining my own ways is a real solution.
They mean well.
All and all technology serves *me* well, but only because I'm interested in how it works, and have the time and education to make it. A lot of people are being swindled and not served at all, just used.
I aim, with a story like this to show that even if you know what you are doing the internet simply isn't useful as it was.
But, too many people have not seen the problem crystalize, they think they can get around it, or worse they think everything still works.
@futurebird yup. My teenager doesn't even know which search engine he's using. He just types into his address bar.
@amanda @futurebird This is why it annoys me so much that Google is usually the pre-defined default search engine.
On our work computers we're not even allowed to select a different search engine. They have disabled the option! It pisses me off on a daily basis. I have to use a search code in the address bar to make a proper search.
@futurebird I have to remind myself that "Let Me Google That For You" was a real website, that was sincere in its snark.
Hits different now doesn't it?
@amanda @futurebird
That site was my go-to for colleagues for years!
These days, its "Let me hallucinate that for you"
@futurebird I mean, I know about this problem with Google. My dad does not. He is 73 and a very reluctant user of the internet and "modern" technology.
Like me, he lovers to learn stuff though, and is curious by nature. He has owned *so* many editions of paper encyclopaedias. These days he mostly uses the default Google search feature on his tablet. I really need to have a conversation with him about what AI is doing to the reliability of the parts of the internet we used to (somewhat) trust.
@veronica @futurebird I'm curious whenever he sees it himself. I feel like so much gen AI chum is just bad. An article titled "when to prune an apricot tree" has ten paragraphs on the principles of pruning, heavy on the hand waving, light on the actual guidance about where on a branch to cut. Followed by an equally empty section on what fruit is.
@amanda @futurebird He's wheelchair-bound and doesn't get out much, so when I visit he always has a lot to talk about. We almost always end up talking about some topic that's been on his mind. Often it involves historical facts, and he sometimes pulls up a search to check some year or other factoid. I tend to double-check on my phone. I'm waiting for a good teaching moment, but there hasn't been enough instances of this yet since AI "took over". It's really hard to change topic with him though.
@veronica @amanda @futurebird A big problem with the new AI search summaries is the AI generates text that looks like regular English text, but it is not reliable for the facts. People who are not familiar with the AI flaws can be fooled.
@EricFielding @veronica @amanda
It used to be if I searched for the numbers on a pill and the response said stuff about "mg" and used what sounded like the generic names of medicines and mentioned medical terms I thought "OK this is probably good info"
It's not safe or wise to do that now. All of those things could just be made up.
To me that's scary, because making up such info sounds like something only a wicked person would do. But a person was not involved.
@veronica I sincerely hope that young-70s as a rule are well versed and immersed in modern technology, unlike my 96 year old Dad who is technological Neanderthal, but I do give him a break as the old brain no longer computes at the necessary level.
@Huntn00 My dad has never owned a regular computer, and only started using a smart phone the last few years. He seems to really like his Android tablet these days though, and it's enough for him.
My mom is a also in her 70s, but she's comfortable with modern technology as far as I can tell. My stepdad too. He even runs Linux. 
@veronica I’m 71. When the Apple IIe appeared in the 80s I had to have one. Was 30 years old. Today, despite short term memory challenges on my part, the internet represents my augmented brain. I use a MBP, just rebuilt my PC for the third time, couldn’t have done that without assisting resources. And recently completed my 4th play though of Cyberpunk 2077 on hard difficulty. A big fan of William Gibson, author.
@veronica @futurebird change his default search engine to Wikipedia
@futurebird And this AI inaccuracy is on common, noncontroversial topics. I find with more obscure stuff it effectively gives up and spouts marginally-related boilerplate fluff. Nothing meaningful there at all.
@futurebird when my kids were in middle & high school 15 yrs ago, I taught them the power of boolean searching & how to vett a source that Google fetched. It was a kind of superpower. What I was looking for would always be on that first search page.
Now? The search engines basically disregard my search terms, ignore the boolean variables I use, and deliver pages of slop that cannot be trusted.
Given that we've been trained to go to a search engine for everything, our access to info is shit.
@futurebird if I were the parent of a school age child now, I would focus on using libraries & librarians over search engines.
And the enshittification of search engines & the internet has gotten me to collect a physical library of reference books.
The internet is being taken from us.
The entire thing, or at least the parts that made it the most useful and moved the most real, effective information.
We barely notice though, because we see it still sitting right there.
@futurebird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PageRank
So long as they're done "dry" of marketing f*ckery it's hard to see how there's alternative to forms of page ranking and citation analysis.
The trouble is when one entity or cohort, a monopoly, grabs dominance and extinguishes diversity.
This where principles like "Adversarial Interoperability" seem recommended.
@futurebird Cory Doctrow describes the idea here:
"...new services can be plugged into existing ones, without permission or cooperation from the operators of the dominant service."
https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Adversarial_Interoperability
@futurebird I bet I'm not the first person to point out the term #enshittification. Oh, and one thought about the solemn nod: it's about money—the amount of money that we (ordinary people) don't have to get this changed.