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Many people think ants have a ribcage in their gaster but, in fact, an ant skeleton looks like this:
(As drawn by Kiuuki on https://www.deviantart.com/kiuuki/art/ant-skeleton-518844863 )
Keep this in mind for Halloween!
@futurebird To me this brings up the mental image of dog-sized ant-type animals which sound *amazingly cool* as a species. Would they be mammals? If so what would the queen look like? How does being so much larger affect their resource acquisition? How would they specialize as individuals?
Does hunting become more viable (do they often hunt in general?)? If so, *wolf packs of giant ants*??
If they're as smart as, say, dogs, how does that affect their eusocial structure?
I think "dog sized ants" are basically "game over for all other macro fauna"
It would be The Planet of the Ants in no time.
@futurebird I'd believe it, regular-sized ants are already absurdly effective insects.
Semi-related, Derin Edala recently started a series from the perspective of sentient... not quite eusocial large insects. They do live in communal hives (and have a pretty unique reproductive structure), but they have no queen-analogue.
(https://derinstories.com/child-of-a-wandering-star/)
Not much lore about exactly their impact on their local environment yet though.
@elm @futurebird I thought ants size was limited to the oxygen uptake they can manage unless they had lungs, did I dream this in biology class once upon a time, I think maybe but I think a huge fly couldn't breath without lungs.
@elm
Thank you for this, it's really excellent
@futurebird @elm
Might depend on if you’re talking teacup poodle sized, or Alsatian sized.
@futurebird @elm [hoping it's ok to jump in] would that even work tho, like… energy consumption wise? like could a hive actually sustainably gather enough bio energy to support itself if you scaled the ants up to that level?
@mcc @futurebird @elm considering that dog sized ants is pretty much what humans are I would say no, their is not enough energy bio chemically available for dog sized ants on our planet.
@mcc @futurebird @elm I'd also wonder if they could be nearly that efficient if they stuck to exoskeletal body plan and could they get enough oxygen to support an animal that big (another aspect of your energy consumption problem). If you're talking about fiction, I'd just assume there were enough other changes to allow it - and work hard to produce enough ant poison!
@mcc @futurebird So, going off of wolves rather than dogs, since those are wild. Source: https://jn.nutrition.org/article/S0022-3166(22)08348-1/fulltext, "a minimum daily energy requirement of 3.25 kg · wolf−1· d−1 (5 × daily basal metabolic rate) has been estimated for a 35 kg wolf (12)."
https://doi.org/10.1644/06-MAMM-A-111R1.1 (not open access, but... sci-hub.) gives tables that suggest a BMR of *roughly* 100 kJ/day/kg/animal
Obviously, we can't have colonies of thousands and even hundreds might be excessive. Let's try and go for a population of ~50 per colony.
Assuming they're omnivores rather than obligate carnivores like wolves, and we have the same 5x BMR minimum daily energy requirement, with ~30 kg dog-ants, that's... 750'000 kJ/day for the entire colony.
Here's where the math gets a bit iffier. Looking around, meat seems to contain *roughly* 8 kJ/g. That comes out to... roughly 100 kg of meat a day for a colony of 50. 1/2
That *seems* like a lot, but the first source says a pack of wolves typically kills an elk every 2-3 days, and an elk weighs ~200-300 kg, so that lines up pretty well. Wolf packs number ~15 individuals, so with our 50, we should easily cover that. By using the extra numbers to supplement their diet with foraging/plants in general, they can make their meals more consistent.
By specializing various classes of "ants" as hunters/gatherers/carers, you could probably (source: nothing) get pretty good hunting rates while still being good at foraging.
Conclusion: it seems like, assuming mammalian dog-ants, you could realistically support colonies of a bit under 50, though said colonies would be quite limited per territory. Carnivores always require bigger territories anyway.
This is all assuming quite efficient dog-ants that don't lose much meat to scavengers and such, but if they have an "anthill", they could probably just drag meat back home to protect it. 2/3
@mcc @futurebird
So... yeah. I think myrmepropagandist is correct, these would be *very* effective animals. They absolutely need an environment that supports them, though.
Regarding social structure, this specific theoretical animal would end up with a few classes of individuals, but due to the numbers being more balanced than ants, and generally being more intelligent, it'd probably (source: none) end up as mini-tribes, with rigid categories.
You could even speculatively have them get progressively more intelligent and really end up with a sapient giant ant (regular ants are pretty handy! Tool use is nice for foraging *and* hunting.)
Less "ambitiously", these would fill roughly the same niche as wolves (unsurprising, we essentially designed them that way), but they could be quite cool as a "fantasy-wolf-replacement". Recognizable but also very alien.
Disclaimer: I failed biology in high school, this is mostly half-remembered facts + math.
Anyway, thanks! I had a blast writing/researching this.
3/3
@elm @futurebird omg K-selection wolf-sized ants in a wolf or lion like ecological niche is *great* worldbuilding
ptoothfish
@futurebird @mcc @elm okay i asked the wrong question for the myrmecology crowd, that's on me
@elm @mcc @futurebird It seems like a stretch to assume that the ants would not immediately start farming rodents and mushrooms.
Makes me think of a reformulation of an old question: Would you rather fight one dog-sized ant or a hundred ant-sized dogs?
@ColesStreetPothole @futurebird @elm
Definitely the dog sized ant, which I would at least feel justified in fighting.
@MaryAustinBooks @futurebird @elm 
I think the dog-sized ant would make quick work of you. Whereas, the ant-sized dogs, all you would need to do is, I dunno, put on long-sleeved clothing?
@ColesStreetPothole @futurebird @elm
Well FIRST off my understanding is that ants have to be tiny because they don't have our efficient closed circulatory system and lungs, ergo, a dog sized ant would immediately collapse from lack of sufficient oxygen. I think I could win against an *unconscious/dead* dog sized ant.
And SECOND off I would lie down and die before harming adorable ant sized doggos.
@MaryAustinBooks @futurebird @elm You make some solid points here. 
@ColesStreetPothole @futurebird @elm
In this essay on the science and ethics of fighting dog sized ants I will...
@ColesStreetPothole
Well if I *had* to fight them, obviously the ant sized dogs. But can I tame it?
@econads @futurebird @elm Right? I'd want to collect the ant-sized dogs and have a dog colony!
@futurebird @elm Probably cat size ants would have the same effect ;-)
@futurebird @elm daydreaming again, i see
and massive full-grown-hog-sized one of these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM8TczDI0g0
> highly social and loyal
> rely heavily on keen sense of smell
> can mark scent trails
> use their jaws to manipulate things
> conform to square-cube law
the perfect dog-sized ant *is* a dog
@futurebird @elm Given the sheer number of ants, if it were "ants are now dog-sized *overnight*" I imagine that actual available surface area on the planet might suddenly become a problem too. 